Audience-Based Marketing Systems That Create Predictable Growth | EP 18

In this episode of Healthcare Marketing Edge, Tim Bouchard interviews Lisa Drafall, Marketing Manager at Project Turnabout about building effective healthcare marketing systems. They discuss audience-centric strategies, the importance of understanding patient journeys, and how to create content that resonates and converts. Learn how to shift from tactical campaigns to strategic systems that grow your practice sustainably.

Tim Bouchard (00:03.95)
Welcome to Health Care Marketing Edge, where we share stories and strategies to grow your practice. I’m Tim Buchard from Luminus, a healthcare marketing agency specializing in helping practices acquire patients and grow their practice. Today, we’re talking about something that separates growing practices from struggling ones. That is building actual marketing systems instead of just blindly running campaigns and hoping for the best. Our guest is Lisa Drefall, marketing manager at Project Turnabout, who’s going to talk about how…

to think in audiences rather than platforms and kind of shift from rush tactics over to more strategic thinking. And that can create a more predictable patient acquisition program for you that can actually scale. If you’ve ever kind of felt like you’re running marketing activities without seeing consistent growth, this episode might inspire you to change your thinking and your approach. Lisa, it’s great to have you. Why don’t you tell everyone a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Lisa (00:55.647)
Thank you, Tim. I’m really excited to be here. My name is Lisa Drefall. My background, have about 30 years in traditional and digital media. You know, I started out in newspaper marketing way back in the day and was, I’ve done television, I’ve done radio, but most of my career has been spent

in doing digital marketing and SEO, SEM. And not only that is I graduated from doing the marketing to selling the marketing. When I started accessing digital marketing and developing strategies, back when we just invented digital marketing, I was having so much success that the salespeople in the building would want me to talk to their customers.

And by being able to talk marketer to marketer instead of salesperson to marketer, I was able to help them create really effective campaigns, which eventually led me to being a vice president of sales for Gannett USA Today and other organizations, having actually never been a salesperson. But a lot of that is understanding how these products actually help the customer.

Tim Bouchard (02:12.622)
Hmm.

Lisa (02:18.448)
because if you have a customer who’s happy, you don’t ever have to resell them because what you’re doing is delivering on the promises you’ve made. And so through that, I’ve had a ton of experience in helping literally thousands of different types of business create advertising campaigns, which are different than a marketing program. A marketing strategy is different than

Tim Bouchard (02:30.648)
Yeah.

Lisa (02:47.034)
the platform you decide to put it on. And so I think that’s really what I’m here to talk to today about what is the marketing system and how are you talking to your audience.

Tim Bouchard (03:04.11)
Cool, and why don’t you tell us a little bit about Project Turnabout 2 and how you got involved with that and where you’ve come with that initially.

Lisa (03:14.812)
Sure. So I decided that I wanted, I always say I want to use my powers for good instead of evil. So I decided I really wanted to get into the nonprofit sector. I wanted to put my talent and skills behind something that was meaningful to me. I’ve had family members who’ve actually gone through this very program.

And you know, it started with a family member was in the hospital and we were told if they drank again, they wouldn’t live. And then we were sent on our way and we weren’t giving any information. We weren’t given any resources. I didn’t know anything about Project Turnabout where I am now. But eventually he found help here and changed his whole life around.

And to me, I just felt, you know, one of the questions we always ask people when developing marketing programs was if more people knew about this, what would happen? Right? And so I thought to myself, if more people knew about the resources that are available for them, if they want to live in recovery, what difference would that make? And so that’s my job here and how I got in.

into this is I want to make sure more people know about recovery and specifically what Project Turnabout can do.

Tim Bouchard (04:44.363)
I like the way you phrase that, too. A lot of times in the digital age now, as you’ve said, like even early on, it was very easy to get results. It’s becoming a little bit more complex and difficult, but we always forget that someone doesn’t always need you in the moment or know that they need you in the moment. And I recently talked about this on another podcast. But the idea that someone doesn’t know that they need it could be something as specific as like a knee replacement or something. They might not know that their life could get better.

Someone might not know that there’s resources for someone else they need, like for senior care or recovery or whatever it is. And there is still some element of putting yourself out there in the right way and understand that you can’t just capture people at the end of the funnel through something like search, which is a great way to do that. But it goes along with other stuff.

Lisa (05:29.869)
That is.

Lisa (05:35.322)
Absolutely, you know what and and I’ve worked with a lot, know in my other capacity I’ve worked with tons of hospitals doctors have people in the healthcare industry and You know, someone just doesn’t wake up one day and decide they need knee surgery It starts with a pain that maybe they don’t even know they should go to the doctor for and then one of your audiences would be that doctor who does referrals

And another one of your audience would maybe be the family member of the guy who doesn’t ever go see the doctor. And so maybe his wife needs to know that these are signs that you need knee surgery. And then maybe another audience or another message is, here’s how we help you pay for it. Here’s how we help you with insurance. You know, there’s so many different ways and, you know, we always talk about the customer buying journey, but I think, you know,

things are so instant and things are so niche and search and AI has made things so specific. If I say I’m having a hard time sleeping at night and I start searching about things about that and then suddenly I see, hey, maybe I have anxiety and maybe anxiety and me using alcohol or other substances to cope with that anxiety is really affecting my life. But you know what I have found in

the people get caught in an echo chamber and they talk to themselves, right? So I might say all sorts of clinical things about what a need surgery is, why my surgeon’s great, where he went to school. Well, no one cares. know, people care about themselves and their problems and what’s going on in their lives. And when I say talk about an audience and create a system, it is about

Tim Bouchard (07:10.06)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (07:26.143)
actually talking about what people care about, not about yourself. you know, and that’s when I, for years when I was in marketing, and you know, basically you have to think of what I did like an agency, right? So when I’m doing agency work, and when I’m helping businesses, one of the games I would always play with them is I call it the taciturn team, right? So.

think of a taciturn, like a grumpy, like eye rolling teenage girl. And when you say something like, well, we’re the best in the area. I don’t care. What does that even mean? That’s dumb, right? we’ve been in business for 50 years. Who cares? 50 years, I don’t, like, God, you’re old, right? And so, but if you do that with a client or you do that with yourself and you keep going through that, who cares? That’s dumb. Eventually you’ll get to be like,

Tim Bouchard (08:00.247)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (08:23.255)
No, 50 years, right? Project Turnabout has been around for 50 years, but what that really means is we have almost over half a century of effective evidence-based results, right? 50 years means nothing, but we have a track record. We really know what we’re doing. And that is a very different message that hits the audience very differently.

And when you talk about the way that algorithms work, when you talk about the way content works and search works and even AI, right? Understanding the audience and where they are and having empathy for that audience, especially in healthcare, it really changes the quality of leads that you get and it really drives down cost because the other thing you want to think about, and I know I’m going on a tangent,

But the other thing you want to think about is that when Google serves up an ad, when Facebook serves up an ad, when anyone serves up an ad to you, they want to prioritize their customer’s experience, right? They want your money. But, you know, think about we all know about search engine marketing, right? If you have a higher page score or quality score, you’re going to get more clicks. You’re going to drive down cost, right?

Tim Bouchard (09:20.567)
Okay

Tim Bouchard (09:36.95)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (09:48.12)
And so the better your content is, the more pinpointed your message is to that specific audience, it’s also going to drive down your cost as well as improve your effectiveness. And then when you think of how AI is now coming into the mix, right? Now, I don’t know much about knee surgery, but we’re using that as our framework. But, you know, my knee is hurting and my doctor says this, right?

Tim Bouchard (10:13.069)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (10:17.108)
If AI is gonna search that, and if you have a specific piece of content that addresses that specific type of knee pain and that specific recommendation from maybe another doctor, you’re going to come up as this is a organization that specializes in that specifically. And so as we get, you know, we have so much noise, right? You go online and you’re seeing, you know,

five hours of content every day, the way we doom scroll and interact with our devices, you have to get someone and say something that stops them and says, that’s me, right? And that’s the new way I think of having to talk to our audiences.

Tim Bouchard (11:07.275)
Yeah, we call it patient centric and you can get to all those same things, right? It’s not always the patient or the direct type of patient that is going to view the content. But if the content and messaging is wrapped around their needs and your approach to them, then even people like caretakers or parents or, you know, whoever can still resonate with that because they’re in the search mode. And it’ll drive a lot of your content strategy, too.

Lisa (11:25.984)
Exactly.

Lisa (11:35.192)
It.

Tim Bouchard (11:36.289)
you’re going to go more for pain point addressing content than you would for the latest machine or whatever it is, technology that we have. So it kind of like flips the script, right? From you to them. And that’s really the big difference.

Lisa (11:44.696)
Right.

Lisa (11:50.453)
Exactly.

Lisa (11:54.9)
Yeah, and I think, you know, we always say like, how is it you’re different from your competitor? And, you know, what’s your unique selling proposition and all those things. And those things are true, but they are how they address the customer’s need. If you have a fancy new machine, no one cares, right? No one cares. But if you have an innovative way to eliminate their pain quickly and at less cost, people care about that.

Tim Bouchard (12:16.172)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (12:24.99)
It may be because of the machine, right? But nobody cares about your machine, right? They care about the quality of care you give them. And one of the things I’ve learned also is I started selling digital advertising, being in that digital space when people didn’t even know what a CPM was or what do you mean an impression, right? So a lot of times,

Tim Bouchard (12:50.157)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (12:53.526)
You have to train your audience about things they don’t know about. You have to educate. And I think that’s something that’s missed. know, when I came into the recovery space, there was so many were CARF certified, or SAMHSA says this, like, if you are, you know, I’m using specifically my target audience. If I’m someone struggling with mental health, struggling with some…

It’s 1 a.m. in the morning and I’m doom scrolling Instagram. I don’t care that you’re CARF certified. It means nothing to me. And so much of the communication and the outreach I was seeing in this space was talking like that to people. And I think it’s really important, like you said, to switch how we talk about what…

what we provide to the consumer.

Tim Bouchard (13:56.15)
Yeah, and there is a big difference between the marketing and the strategy and just simply advertising too. And I think you were talking about educating the patients and their families around them. We also, as marketers, whether we’re on an internal team or an agency working with a practice, I have to also coach and educate a leadership. I mean, they’re doctors, they aren’t marketers. They sometimes think in terms of their certifications and their technology and their treatment processes.

But like you’re saying, you have to kind of flip the script. That’s how we do it too. But you’re also bringing them along for the ride. So, you know, that’s maybe why it’s easier for them to go towards, yeah, we’ll spend money on search ads. That makes a lot of sense with me. It’s a very money in result out type of activity. But the strategic communications content, even putting the doctors or leadership in an organization, nonprofit, whatever it is, out into the world to say like,

Lisa (14:29.643)
Right.

Tim Bouchard (14:55.457)
we are here for you, we’re the ones that are building the relationship with you, it takes a little bit of coaching to get them into that and flip their mindset a little bit.

Lisa (15:05.225)
Well, that’s true, but here’s what I’ve learned just from working with so many businesses is that as much as like you and I could probably sit in a room and talk about the details of marketing and strategy and platform and all of that stuff for hours, right? Because this has been our career. This is our special interest, if you will, right? But if you think about a doctor, there’s…

their knowledge set, their passion is very, very different. And so I think of it as a marketer is my job is to understand their passion, understand their motivations, understand what set them on fire to do what they do. And then it’s my job to help them communicate that, right? That’s my job is to understand their passion. And I used to always tell people,

There are a lot of good ideas, especially when you work in television. Everybody would come in. I was a creative director for about 13 television stations in California. So, you know, a lot of people come in and they have these great ideas for this commercial and what they want to see. you know, especially back in the day when there wasn’t video content everywhere, you know, and but there’s a difference between a good idea and an effective idea.

And I think letting and having that conversation with people and saying like, that’s a really good idea. Let’s think about how we can actually make it effective. And I think that’s always helped me have that conversation with people who are really, really smart, have a great depth of knowledge in what they’re good at and assume that what we do is really simple.

and like just run some ads or they don’t wanna think too deep on it. It helps them understand that there’s a difference between, yeah, that’s a really cool idea, but it wouldn’t be effective and be able to explain to them why. That’s one of the things I’ve learned in having that conversation. And it’s true because if you’re a marketer and you’re listening to this podcast, you still are probably not the decision maker, right? There’s someone else who makes those final calls.

Tim Bouchard (17:12.63)
Yeah.

Lisa (17:24.765)
who has no expertise in marketing. And a lot of times what I see is, you know, so for so many years I was in the selling part of marketing, right? And now I’m in the buying part. And I have so many people come in and they’re like, we want to sell you CC, you know, connected TV. we want to sell you geofencing. what about SEM? None of them ask what my strategy is.

to see if and how that specific product would work for me. Right? You know, and this is one of my favorite stories to tell about this is way back in the 2000s, I had a customer come in and they ran a home health business, right? Going into people’s homes and helping the elderly. was a man and a wife.

Tim Bouchard (17:55.244)
Hmm.

Tim Bouchard (18:23.436)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (18:23.539)
and they didn’t have a really big budget and they came in with, you know, their $300 wanting to know what I could do for them. And, you know, we were the number one news station in Northern California. We had 86 % share of all the ratings because they had a really good marketer. And so, you know, the only thing that I could think is they could afford very cheap spots in soap operas, right?

Tim Bouchard (18:41.674)
hahaha

Lisa (18:51.091)
3 p.m. soap operas back in the day, General Hospital, it was maybe 30 bucks a spot back then. Now all we did is run ads in one soap opera. Front and back of every commercial break was their ad over and over and over again, just to that audience. We did not spread them around. We did not try to give them lots of frequency. It was just that one audience. And within six months, they owned that audience.

Tim Bouchard (18:51.852)
Mm.

Lisa (19:20.547)
Anyone in that audience who needed home help had called them. And so now they had five employees and now we gave them a new audience and then they owned that audience. Now they had 10 employees. You by the time I moved California and came to Minnesota, they had three locations in two cities. And when we’re running a million dollar, a multimillion dollar company and it started with owning general hospitals audience, right?

Tim Bouchard (19:45.589)
Nice.

Lisa (19:48.017)
and talking to them. Who’s sitting on their couch at three o’clock watching General Hospital? How do we talk to them? And I think that still holds. We just have way better ways to target an audience, to pinpoint an audience, but it’s still about finding a specific message for a specific audience and then saying it over and over and over and over again until you own that audience. And I think sometimes where we go wrong,

is we try to get this huge reach. I got 100,000 people to see that. 100,000 people who cares? Give me 20 of the right people and let me talk to them 20 times and I’m gonna get you a better result. And so I think that’s, you know, overall why focusing on audience really is paramount to an effective strategy.

Tim Bouchard (20:25.228)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Bouchard (20:42.176)
So one thing that people are probably thinking is we are talking about meeting people where they are throughout their even early part of their journey or even not knowing they have to start the journey. Are there any tips for figuring out where you might want to meet those people early on in their journey rather than, you know, what we’re talking about is what’s the alternative to just grabbing them when they search specifically for something, right? How can we think outside the box to figure out what might resonate with them?

Lisa (21:11.856)
Well, you know, I’ll say for, you know, to go to some of the things I’ve learned in the recovery space, right? There’s several different audiences. So for example, I might get a lot of my referrals from a probation officer, right? A lot of times people don’t want to get into recovery until there’s a lot of consequences. And so, but Minnesota has laws that say that probation officer can’t force them to come here.

Tim Bouchard (21:32.108)
Mm.

Lisa (21:41.18)
They have choice. Patients can decide where they need to go. And so, you know, where I really need to catch that patient, I need to catch them in their daily life. And so for me, an example of that is with May being Mental Health Awareness Month, our content strategy and our audience strategy is to talk about specific mental health concerns, like for anxiety, for example.

and talk about them as, here’s what anxiety looks like. Here’s the science behind anxiety. Talking about the science behind anxiety and how it may not always present as anxiety, that goes to probation officers. That goes to mental health providers. Are you currently feeling anxiety? Here’s how we can help you. That goes to the person scrolling that has anxiety.

So I take the idea of how does anxiety play a role in substance use disorder? And then I think of all the different audiences that are a part of that decision-making, that are a part of their support system. The sister, the kid, right? Is your parent struggling with anxiety? Maybe talk to them. Call us, we can help you find resources, right? So we end up with a lot of calls.

of people saying, you know, such and such needs this. And, you know, we’re willing to take all those calls and we often even refer them to other places. But by allowing us to become that place where people know if I call Project Turnabout, they’re going to find me some sort of help, right? Because we focus on the very next step, not all the steps. No one can do all the steps. Recovery is a lifelong journey. But we help people with the next step.

Tim Bouchard (23:29.536)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (23:35.951)
And so, you know, I hope that makes sense and answered your question about, you know, meeting people where they are. It’s taking one topic and that’s where the systems, I think that, you I wanted to talk about, but I see we’re already running out of time and getting close to, but the system is keeping track of all of that. It can be really confusing, right? And so, you know, maybe we come back another day and talk about the system, but…

Tim Bouchard (23:53.738)
haha

Lisa (24:03.812)
You know, I know I’m gonna talk about anxiety and I know I have 10 different audiences to talk about anxiety for. And that’s where I use AI, is I don’t use AI to craft my ideas, to craft that, but I do say, okay, now give me a doctor. Now I want a mental health provider. Now I want a family member. Now I want the actual person that I’m talking to. And then internally.

Right? Because that’s the other thing with marketing. If I’m promising something externally and it’s not resonating internally, then there’s going to be some cognitive dissonance when they walk in the door. Well, this isn’t what I thought it was going to be. And then they’re going to be unhappy. And then they’re not going to like us. But if I say, no, no, we don’t help you with your anxiety, we help you find a treatment path for anxiety and substance use disorder. That’s a very different expectation than

Tim Bouchard (24:31.648)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (24:59.472)
Oh, you’re gonna come here and in 30 days you’re gonna be all better. you know, that’s why systems are important because if you wanna do it right, you have to have a very clear strategy and then you have to implement it.

Tim Bouchard (25:17.706)
We run into something pretty similar on the mental health side here in New York. We help an organization that’s a go-between. They are a community outreach, education, and connection piece that gets providers connected with the people that need them, primarily on the maternal and adolescent side. But yeah, May is coming up, so we have a content strategy for them too. So I kind of chuckled when I heard that. And this will be coming out in May, so what better timing?

Lisa (25:38.244)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean…

Lisa (25:45.152)
you know, and I think that’s great. And again, you know, I do want to just circle back to the health of people is so important. And, you know, there’s

You know, I just think there’s so much opportunity for us to be better stewards of how we’re talking to people. You know, I know that people need help. I know that it’s imperative that we reach through the clutter and what we do and find a way. You know, one of the best compliments I get is when people come to our or comment on my ads or come to our Facebook page and say, you know, you have the best ads.

I love seeing your ads, right? I mean, when people like and share my ads and say, you know, keep at it, whoever you are, your ads make me feel better every day, your ads give me hope, your ads, you know, like that, I mean, to me, that’s the best that we can do because not only am I doing a benefit for my customer who is my company I work for.

but I really am creating content that resonates with the people it needs to resonate with.

Tim Bouchard (27:03.658)
Yeah, let’s try and wrap up on this type of thing too, because I think it might help move the needle for someone. If someone is listening to this and they say, you know what, we are coming up a little short. We’re kind of focusing on shortcuts with search ads or social ads, and we’re not really backing that up with anything. How can you motivate them to come out of being stuck in that tactical approach? And you’re not necessarily saying abandon that stuff. You’re saying, how are you?

Lisa (27:09.455)
Okay.

Tim Bouchard (27:31.348)
supplementing that with a system around it to make the whole journey make sense. you what might be their first step to identifying that or maybe starting to shift their thought process on

Lisa (27:44.671)
You know, like for me, the first step was actually talking to our clients, talking to everyone. You know, I did the very bottom-up approach. It is, it’s like, hey, what were you thinking when you said yes and you clicked that button? What were you thinking? Like, where were you at? Because I don’t, you know, I take a very empathetic approach. I put myself,

Tim Bouchard (27:52.522)
Hmm, sometimes it’s that easy.

Tim Bouchard (28:02.869)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (28:09.364)
sitting where they’re at doing what they’re doing. When I first came, you know, like I said, we get a lot of our businesses through referrals. I met with hundreds of probation officers all throughout Minnesota. And like, how do you make that decision? What’s going, what’s your day look like? You know, what, where’s your heart in this? What matters to you? I had them come and talk to my staff. So my staff knew.

Tim Bouchard (28:28.523)
Mm.

Lisa (28:36.812)
what mattered to them and where their heart was and what their priorities were. Because at the end, what do people care about? Themselves. So, you know, and a lot of times we make assumptions that we know. And, you know, the number one thing, what do you do when you’re a marketer or a salesperson or anyone going into a business the first time? You do a needs analysis. You don’t assume what they need, you find out what they need.

I’ve done needs analysis with all of our customers basically, right? To just sit down and talk to them, to understand where they’re coming from. And then if you want to do search engine marketing, I know, right, here’s certain keywords, where are they landing when they go there, right? A landing page, I’ve built it as a story, because what do people do? I click on something, I want them to keep scrolling. So my landing pages are meant to be content and keep you scrolling, to keep you engaged.

Tim Bouchard (29:30.027)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (29:34.262)
And not just, you know, it’s the old style ad or newspaper writing. You know, everything I say is to get you to the next thing I say.

And so, you you have to think about that whole content journey and how to engage and how to reach through with your message. And, you know, in the healthcare industry, most of the time people are reaching out because they’re in pain. You know, people aren’t, you know, unless it’s their annual checkup or some, you know, run of the mill thing that you have to do when you’re 40 or 50, they’re reaching out because they’re suffering.

And I think important to get where are they suffering, what’s going on, having that conversation with them, and then letting that inform how you do everything else, right? That should be where we start.

Tim Bouchard (30:26.293)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Bouchard (30:30.409)
Yeah, I like that. And it’s also, think you brought up one thing, I’m just gonna highlight it. Even if you are someone that’s just running ads, don’t forget those ads are sending someone somewhere. And if that page is low quality or doesn’t empathetically connect with them, that could also be a reason why ads might not be working for you. So it’s very much like a ecosystem thing. And you can apply the same fact finding to it.

Lisa (30:48.823)
Right.

And remember too that the landing page, yeah, the landing page is a story. Stories have a beginning, middle, and end. And if you’re just putting some stuff on there without thinking about the story, the beginning, middle, and the end, and how you’re talking about it, you’re gonna have lower conversions. Just period.

Tim Bouchard (31:00.043)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Bouchard (31:13.065)
Yep. Well, this has been really awesome. I feel like we could have another conversation in a couple of weeks or months. So we’ll keep that in mind. But why don’t, before we go, why don’t we tell people, yeah, why don’t we tell people where they can find more about you and Project Turnabout?

Lisa (31:20.813)
really do. feel like me and you could talk forever. It’s been awesome, Tim. I really.

Lisa (31:37.205)
LinkedIn would probably be the best place for this audience. My name is Lisa Drefall. That’s D as in dog, R-A, F as in Frank, A-L-L. You can tell I have had to spell that a million times in my life. And Project Turnabout, you can find us on LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram or our website, projectturnabout.org. We are the largest network of rural recovery centers in Minnesota.

Tim Bouchard (31:49.611)
Hmm

Lisa (32:04.747)
And then we also have Vanguard Gambling, which is one of only four residential gambling treatment programs in the country and is absolutely free to anyone in Minnesota. So if you or anyone you know is struggling with substances or gambling, come to our website. we absolutely, there’s a page on our website called I Need Help versus My Loved One Needs Help.

versus a client needs help, right? So we really pinpoint, if you need help, go to the, need help, and there’s resources and it helps you know what to expect and how we can help you find a way into recovery.

Tim Bouchard (32:52.135)
Awesome. Well, this has been incredibly valuable for anyone that’s just tired of running campaigns and maybe they’re not having predictable results and what else they could look at to supplement that. So thanks for showing us how that thinking can really change their health care marketing for the better.

Lisa (33:08.513)
I really appreciate you reaching out to him and if you ever want to talk again, I’m open. It was a great conversation.

Tim Bouchard (33:17.671)
Awesome. And listeners, if you want to find out if you have gaps in your patient pipeline experience, check out our patient pipeline blueprint offer. It’s a workshop to uncover how you can attract new patients and convert more inquiries into appointments for your practice. Learn more at luminus.agency slash blueprint. And of course, subscribe to Healthcare Marketing Edge on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube for more insights like this. I’ll see everyone on the next episode. Thanks, Lisa.